<blockquote><b>Quoting ⚓ Sarah ⚓:</b>" He is biologically a man, he should NOT be allowed to fight women. I'm sorry. And I agree with Matt on ... [snip!] ... was sick to want to fight women and it made the guy a freak for wanting that, hes not those things because hes transgendered. "</blockquote>
But she's not a guy anymore...
She's a she. She takes estrogen and probably androgen blockers which will not allow her to build muscle like before. So should she fight men?
<blockquote><b>Quoting Iron Man:</b>" That was my understanding as well...I didn't see him actually attack Fox for being transgendered, just ... [snip!] ... woman fighting men? It's a good question, but I think the same thing applies. You fight in your own gender class, guy or girl."</blockquote>
Which is what fox is doing. Her gender is female...and now her sex is too.
<blockquote><b>Quoting Iron Man:</b>" He did not. He began his career fighting in the girl's arena...I think he's had two fights? I do know ... [snip!] ... did not disclose his transgender status before going into the arena to fight his first female opponent. No one had any idea."</blockquote>
It's really no ones business though.
She is legally female now.
<blockquote><b>Quoting Lady GooGoo™:</b>" This is wrong. WTF is Dana thinking? Oh right, all he wants is an interesting fight. That's what he's ... [snip!] ... to how wrong this is. If he wanted to fight in the UFC he should have kept his d**k and fought men. Just one of those things."</blockquote>
She's not a he...
<blockquote><b>Quoting ⚓ Sarah ⚓:</b>" But he lied to the athletic commission. And estrogen isnt going to automatically make you're bone and muscle structure different."</blockquote>
Bones? No. But there are men who have a girls structure (I'm gonna look up more pics of her). Estrogen does in most cases though. Testosterone most certainly has an effect though. Without male levels, muscles will shrink.
<blockquote><b>Quoting ⚓ Sarah ⚓:</b>" Lying is ok?"</blockquote>
How's it lying? Did it specifically ask if she had a p***s before?
If it said gender and she checked female, it's not lying.
<blockquote><b>Quoting ~Ice Princess~:</b>" <blockquote><b>Quoting ⚓ Sarah ⚓:</b>" But he lied to the athletic commission. ... [snip!] ... Estrogen does in most cases though. Testosterone most certainly has an effect though. Without male levels, muscles will shrink."</blockquote>
It appears no testosterone blockers are needed as without tested, she's only getting it from the adrenal glands. This means she could have less testosterone than her born female counterparts as they produce some from not only the adrenals, but the ovaries too. Here's an interview with Dr. Marci Bowers:
SD: Does Fallon carry a significant advantage in mixed martial arts competition, due to being biologically born a male?
MB: Most measures of physical strength minimize, muscle mass decreases, bone density decreases, and they become fairly comparable to women in their musculature. After as much time as has passed in her case, if tested, she would probably end up in the same muscle mass category as her biologically born female counterpart.
The IOC (International Olympic Committee) now allows transgender athletes to compete in their games once they've had the required hormone therapy and surgery. People think it should be based on chromosomes, but the problem with that is when they went back in 1988 and tested female athletes, they found that nine of them had tested positive for Y chromosomes, so there are a lot of intersex conditions that basically dictate that the only way you can do it (gender verification testing), is by genital and hormonal status.
SD: Does she have to take estrogen for the rest of her life?
MB: We believe that patients should remain on some sort of hormone replacement therapy for the rest of their life, so the answer to that is yes. In order for her to maintain normal bone density and things like that, she needs to stay on estrogen.
SD: Does the body stop producing testosterone naturally, after undergoing SRS and the hormone regimen that accompanies it? If she went off her hormone therapy, would she produce any testosterone?
MB: If she went off her hormones, she's not going to get any of that testosterone back, other than the very small amount that's produced by the adrenal glands. The only way she could get a significant level of testosterone now, outside the normal female limits, is if she was getting it exogenously from an injectible or oral source.
SD: Men have tougher, thicker skin than women. Does the skin change with the hormone therapy?
MB: It absolutely softens and thickness is decreased.
SD: After so many years of hormone therapy, how difficult is it for her to maintain muscle mass?
MB: She's a woman now. You've got to give her that. She's physically fit, and probably works out a lot to stay that way. It's not as easy to put on or maintain muscle now.
SD: Would her pre or post fight drug testing show any differences from a biologically born female's tests?
MB: It would show results just like an ordinary female. If it doesn't, and she's posting detectable levels of testosterone outside the normal limits of a female, then she's getting it from somewhere else.
SD: Is there a way to test drive this without undergoing the surgery?
MB: Actually, it's part of the standard of care. The World Professional Association for Transgender Health sets standards for people, that they run a course of hormone therapy for a period of one year (sometimes more), because it is a tremendous change that presents a lot of stressors. We recommend that people live within their desired gender role for at least a year, while on hormones.
SD: So, in addition to the date of Fallon's SRS, she would have completed at least a year of hormonal therapy prior to said surgery that would have added to the decrease in physical advantages?
MB: Yes, absolutely.
After speaking with Dr. Bowers, I was able to connect with Dr. Sherman Leis. Dr. Leis is a world renowned surgeon, professor, lecturer and founder of the Philadelphia Center for Transgender Surgery. I asked him the same round of questions I asked Dr. Bowers, to which he agreed with all of her answers. Here's what he had to say about Fallon possibly having an unfair advantage in competition:
If an individual is on female hormones, and she's been on them for several years, the hormones decrease the muscle mass, bone density, strength, libido and aggression. Those things are attributed to testosterone, and if she no longer produces testosterone, then she would have the level that an average female would have.
She's been doing that (hormone therapy) for so many years, that she probably does not have a significant advantage, if any at all. Especially because she wasn't a big man when she lived as a male. She's 5'7 and slight of build, and basically the size of an average female. Factor in that she's been on hormones for so long, and has had the surgery, she more than likely has the muscle mass, bone density and strength of most females.
i dont think its fair. he was BORN a man hes basically regardless of what A MAN he has men genes and man muscles. thats bullshit that they allow HIM to fight w women!
muscle mass and bone density may decrease from the hormone therapy & surgery but there is still major differances in the skeletal shape, cardio vascular system & different center of gravity between male & females which alters flexibilty, strength, and reaction time in certain areas of the body.
Quoting ~Ice Princess~:" <blockquote><b>Quoting ~Ice Princess~:</b>" <blockquote><b>Quoting ⚓ ... [snip!] ... of most females. http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/3/8/4075434/leading-sex-reassignment-physicians-weigh-in-on-fallon-fox"
Except I can grab another doctor, who says that she does have an advantage. Take Dr. Ramona Krutzik, who interestingly enough is a woman doctor. This is what she has to say:
Gender and sex
Gender is more of an identity. It's how you identify yourself. Sex is multi-layered.
1. Chromosomally, what you are
2. Hormonally, what you are
3. Gender, how you're identifying yourself
It's actually very complicated, and I believe that the Olympics actually takes these on a case by case basis. In this particular instance, Fox might potentially have an unfair advantage over the females she faces, because she developed all the way into adulthood as a male. There would be increased musculature, and an increased ability to build muscle, so an advantage might be present due to years of conditioning and becoming more masculine, which includes differences in endurance and strength. The male body develops differently, both in skeletal structure and muscularly.
When pitted against an average female, I would say that there were probably some advantages that the hormonal blockade and subsequent replacement can't take away 100%, simply because she lived so much of her life as a male, and developed fully as such.
Here's the thing. Estrogen is what actually causes bone growth. It's not the testosterone. Men convert testosterone peripherally to estrogen. That's why we think that men who have low testosterone levels become osteoporotic. It's not because of the lack of testosterone, but because that lack of test can't be converted to estrogen. When men go on hormonal blockers for other health concerns, they can get osteoporosis, but they're not getting estrogen.
So here you have a man, who was on hormonal blockers to block testosterone, but is now taking estrogen, which is then going to prevent osteoporosis, so there wouldn't be a great percentage of bone density loss, per se. Males have higher bone density and higher mass skeletons than females. It takes a long time for that to diminish.
Typically, you're looking at about 15 years after androgen suppression and SRS to really start to see significant changes in bone density. It's been too early for her to see much of a decrease in bone mass or to make her equal to that of a female. She started off with a much higher bone density than other women her same age, and therefore will maintain a lot of that for a while. Additionally, because she is taking estrogen, that will actually help to maintain that bone mass. She may even carry that higher density much longer because of the estrogen therapy.
Women also have lighter, child bearing hips because of the difference in hormones during the body's developmental years. Her skeleton and body mass and shape developed a long time ago. Those changes cannot be undone. They are permanent.
Her testosterone levels are more than likely in the normal female range, since her adrenals are the primary source for it now. Without seeing her labs, it's hard to say for certain. How are they maintaining her levels? Are they keeping them at the very high end or at the low end? There are huge normal ranges for those values.
She developed fully into a male with normal musculature and bone structure. She didn't undergo hormone therapy and surgery until she was fully developed, as compared to someone who completes therapy and surgery in their adolescence or very early adulthood, when they haven't completely developed. Men are completely developed by the age of 22, and she didn't start her therapy until several years later. She has the potential to be significantly stronger because her muscle development reached several years beyond full maturity, giving her the potential to be significantly stronger than other age matched women.
When you see the female bodybuilders, the ones that have built large amounts of muscle mass, they don't achieve that without androgen supplements. Women just do not have the ability to produce the same muscle mass that men do. The thing you need to consider is that everyone has different inborn abilities to develop muscle. It comes down to genetic potential and some people just have better abilities.
There's not really a way to determine how much her muscle mass will decrease over time. What can be said is that she has a naturally higher propensity to build and maintain muscle mass because she was once a fully developed, adult male. You can't ever take that away from her.
Did you catch the part about the estrogen? It doesn't matter if he's taking estrogen or whatever, it's not breaking down his skeletal structure at all.
<blockquote><b>Quoting ~Ice Princess~:</b>" <blockquote><b>Quoting Iron Man:</b>" I find this whole thing pretty fascinating. Here's ... [snip!] ... Fallon is legally female now and yes, taking estrogen and such will put her at an even keel with other female UFC fighters..,"</blockquote>
Estrogen does NOT change muscle mass.
This is still a man with his weiner cut off. He still, genetically, is a man.
If you saw a man and a woman, both on steroids, the woman would never develop the same muscle mass as the man. So, if a woman taking steroids could never achieve the same mass as a man on steroids, why would a man on estrogen be seen as equal, physically, to a woman?
<blockquote><b>Quoting Iron Man:</b>" Except I can grab another doctor, who says that she does have an advantage. Take Dr. Ramona Krutzik, ... [snip!] ... the estrogen? It doesn't matter if he's taking estrogen or whatever, it's not breaking down his skeletal structure at all."</blockquote>
I trust Dr. Bower more. She's an expert on sex reassignment, transgender, etc.
<blockquote><b>Quoting ~Julie Blue Eyes~:</b>" <blockquote><b>Quoting ~Ice Princess~:</b>" <blockquote><b>Quoting Iron ... [snip!] ... could never achieve the same mass as a man on steroids, why would a man on estrogen be seen as equal, physically, to a woman?"</blockquote>
Lack of testosterone will though...
<blockquote><b>Quoting ⚓ Sarah ⚓:</b>" Exactly! I wonder who paid off those other doctors :?"</blockquote>
They wouldn't have to. It's their field of expertise. Look up Dr. Marci Bowers.
Quoting ~Ice Princess~:" <blockquote><b>Quoting ⚓ Sarah ⚓:</b>" Exactly! I wonder who paid off ... [snip!] ... those other doctors :?"</blockquote> They wouldn't have to. It's their field of expertise. Look up Dr. Marci Bowers."
unless they are doing a skelaton transplant as part of the ''reassignment'' surgery there is still an issue to be addressed.....the spine, ribcage, hips, knees ,ankles, and skull structure are all different in males & females......not to mention the tendon structure and function.